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Murder has been committed with a gun in 2 full years. Boston Police Commissioner Paul Evans. should be commended for his leadership role in this outstanding effort. And I'm very glad that he's joined me here today. A year ago I looked at Boston's approach, and it was

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clear that tracing guns seized from young criminals was a key to the city's success. So I directed the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms to launch a national initiative in 17 cities to replicate Boston's effort and trace all the guns used in crimes. A year later,

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the first results are in. Police departments in these 17 cities submitted for tracing nearly twice as many guns used in crimes as they did the year before. We found that almost half of all guns used in crimes came from young people. More importantly, for the first

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time, we know where the juveniles are getting these guns, how they're getting them, and what kinds of guns they're using. One crucial fact is now clear. That guns are finding their way quickly from legitimate retail stores to black markets through a network of gun traffickers and

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corrupt gun dealers. Make no mistake, gun traffickers are funneling guns to lawless youth. We know how they operate, and we intend to shut them down. Because of the Republican majority in Congress for the first time in 16 years, women across America are getting a tax cut.

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The truth is the Republican tax relief bill helps women throughout their lives both at home and in the job market. The only people who think this tax relief bill is not good for women are those who don't believe we women can manage our own money, and

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that thinking is certainly passe. So let's talk first about tax relief at home. With this bill, the mothers of 41 million American children will be able to keep more of their own money. The $500 per child tax credit that will begin in 1998 is money mothers

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surely can use to make ends meet, money that can be used to pay for school clothes or groceries or the often unexpected expenses that come with raising children. Women and their families will also receive help in sending their children to college. The cost of higher education

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is overwhelming these days. I just finished sending two children to college, so I know how expensive that can be. Women are provided additional options to save for their retirement through expanded IRAs. The fact is that we live longer than men, yet we generally have less savings

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set aside. Our society shouldn't force women into choosing between buying shoes for an eight year old daughter or saving for their retirement. And expanded IA's help toward those retirement years. Washington Journal continues. As we continue on this Sunday morning, this is a chance to look, uh,

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not only on the front pages but inside the morning newspapers, and we'll get to your calls momentarily. Our guests around the table, Joseph Lowry, who is the president of the Southern Christian Leadership Conference. Good morning to you. Thanks for being with us, and Robert Woodson, who

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is the president and founder of the National Center for Neighborhood Enterprise. We'll talk about both of your organizations, but first, let's talk about what are you reading? Well, it struck me was the article in the lead story in the front page of The Washington Post that

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says from the top, a city that doesn't work. What it does is profile that over the past 15 years, millions and millions of dollars are languishing in bank accounts unspended at a time when there are thousands of people going without housing, uh, uh, DC, Washington DC.

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Has the highest incident of death from tuberculosis and all the other problems and yet the president and policymakers still define the problems of poor people as being a lack of money. So I just think that the poor are victims more of incompetence, greed on the part

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of those who are supposed to be their leaders than they are a dearth of, uh, federal or local financial support, uh, to those cities. I think he's he's right, uh, partially anyway, and, and sometimes, uh, partial truths are more dangerous than than lies. I think it's

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a there are combination of factors that contribute to a crisis in our cities today. Uh, one of them is the lack of, of resources being directed, and I think those who administer the programs have to share some of the blame. What else you're reading today? We

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also the uh talking about weapons study found arming youth and we seem to be attacking the problem of youth violence by dealing with external factors and not investing in institutions within those communities that have demonstrated that they can discourage youth from using weapons so that the

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real approach to youth crime reduction. Is to support those institutions that influence the youth so that they will put down the guns and we have the one of the best examples in Washington DC with the Alliance of Concerned men that have neutralized gang violence in the

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bending terrorist section, one of the most violent areas of the city, and I think that there are some valuable lessons from this experience that the public seems to be ignoring. This story by David Montgomery, which is in the metro section of The Washington Post, points out

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that. Uh, in a recent period of time, the police have confiscated about 958 guns, half of them. Were in the hands of criminals younger than the age of 25 and most had been sold legally in Virginia and Maryland. DC, as you know, has one of the

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toughest gun laws in the country, but if you just cross the river in Virginia or across the border to Maryland, you can get a gun. So what does that tell you about gun control laws here? Well, it tells you that maybe we're attacking the problem the

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wrong, that we're taking the wrong approach. The, the problem isn't the lack of, uh, guns. I mean, if these young people want a gun like drugs, they will obtain them some way or another. What you've got to do is to understand why they are taken Boston,

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Massachusetts, for instance, has dramatically reduced youth violence by a combination of uh cooperation between neighborhood groups and law enforcement, and we ought to, to, uh, explore why that model can't be applied to Washington and other cities. Mr. Whitson, what are you reading today? I'm sorry, what

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are you reading today? Oh, Joseph Lowry. Oh, Joseph Laer. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's Woodson over there. How you that mistake. I don't make that. I don't understand. Well, the first thing I'd like to call attention to is that the Bob Weaver. Uh, who was the first

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African American to serve in a presidential cabinet position passed, uh, this past week in in New York and he was, uh, appointed by President Johnson as the Secretary of Housing and Urban Development in 1966, uh, only 31 years ago, which means we haven't had African Americans

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in the cabinet in a very long time. I just wanted to mention I, I was reading in the Sun that, uh, black law students are disappearing. In at least two major uh controversial sites in this country in California and Texas, they're down to zero and in

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one instance and one student in the other, uh, because of the uh court rulings in Texas and the Proposition 209 in California and uh I, I think it, it sends a message to this country that if we, if we renege on our commitment to try to,

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uh, uh, close the gap. And remedy inequities in this country that were caused intentionally uh by public policy public policy doesn't address it vigorously, we will uh see a recession and a retrogression in this country uh we need Hispanic and, and women and, and, and, and,

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and African Americans to study law and other, uh, levels of higher education other aspects of higher education so I'm, I'm very disturbed, uh, that we've seen already. Uh, this tremendous decrease in minority students in our at higher education, but I think that we're attacking the problem

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in the wrong way, Joe, by, uh, we're looking at it as a demand side problem. I mean these kids who are not uh doing well in law school and graduate schools because they're not meeting the standard are doing so because they're coming from failed schools and

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as long as we don't focus attention on improving the schools or creating educational reform. Then we're gonna continue to see this decline. The answer isn't to lower the standards and then demand that our kids then uh get in those institutions. What we ought to do is

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leave the standards alone and do what the military has done when you look at a black general, you don't say that that's a black general. Because the, the military has has focused on the demand side, improving the opportunities for people to participate. Well, there we go,

00:09:01.049 - 00:09:18.979

creating strong men that we can easily knock down. Nobody's asking for lower standards. Nobody's asking to admit unqualified students. What we're asking is that public policy. And the policy of the institutions reversed the policies of long standing where they intentionally denied minorities and women for that

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job for matriculation. Let me finish, Bob, uh, uh, what we've got to say in this country is that when since we were so intentional. About excluding and I certainly agree we need to work uh at the at the elementary and high school and college levels to

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enrich the educational process but that doesn't mean because they were they were they didn't have good schools that they ought not be denied the opportunity to matriculate at a higher level students who've been admitted to law school, medical schools, and other professional schools, uh. Affirmative action

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programs have succeeded, have passed, have met the test and are performing as as good citizens, uh, in this country. Joseph Lowery is a uh native of Huntsville, Alabama, right? No. I'm a Northerner in North Alabama. What is the Southern Christian Leadership Conference? It's the same thing

00:10:08.390 - 00:10:23.590

it was since 1957 when Dr. King and others of us met in New Orleans and organized it. Uh, to fight, uh, to fight the attitudes as expressed by some people in this around this table that, uh, that it's all right to discriminate, we, we began, uh,

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dealing with public transportation, segregation and public transportation growing out of the Montgomery bus boycott, and then we expanded the voter registration, segregation in public accommodations, and, and world peace and human rights and, uh, before we are celebrating our 40th anniversary, our convention will will open next

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Sunday in Atlanta. Uh, that's the 40th year of the existence of SCLC. A lot of pictures in the newspapers, uh, this past week on the closing of World Wars and significant is the, uh, lunch counter, which is now part of the Smithsonian Museum here in Washington

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that was part of the civil rights movement. How significant was that? Oh, it was tremendous, tremendously significant. I think 22 things came out of that, uh, the early part of the movement. One was self-determination. Uh, I think the, uh, Montgomery bus boycott, uh, where African Americans

00:11:12.929 - 00:11:28.450

in Montgomery decided no matter what the law said, no matter what the policy was, they weren't gonna ride on the back of the bus, so they decided to walk rather than ride. That was the first major mass movement around self determination, not depending on government policy.

00:11:28.530 - 00:11:45.320

You'd be happy to hear that about, not depending on the laws, but depending on their own self-respect. And and self dignity and the city with the second phase of that self-determination policy, uh, regardless of what the law says the policy was they would not be, uh,

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denigrated by uh being permitted to buy goods in one counter but not being able to buy at another. So the, the, the lunch counter in, in, in Woolworth's in, in North Carolina. Is a significant symbol of of self-determination in this country's evolution toward justice. We'll we'll

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give you equal time in just a moment. We'll get a call though who's been patient from Atlanta. Good morning. Um, good morning. Go ahead, caller. I have a question regarding the first um call I had this morning. If the speaker was, if the Republicans were able

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to retain their seat, the majority 98, will Gingrich keep his seat as Speaker of the House? Bob Woodson, did you want to take that question? I mean, I, I, I'm not here to discuss Newt Gingrich, uh, you know, is a colleague of yours, why don't you

00:12:32.950 - 00:12:43.809

answer the question? It's not an issue that I'm here to discuss. Uh, well, let me ask you this, we did spend a fair amount of time in the last half hour talking about, uh, what's been going on in the House Republican Party. What is the National

00:12:43.809 - 00:13:01.260

Center for Neighborhood Enterprise? The National Center is an. organization that helps low income people. I founded it 17 years ago we assist low income people in 38 states towards greater independence and self sufficiency through training and technical assistance, and uh we're very proud of that experience.

00:13:01.409 - 00:13:13.510

Some remarks earlier about uh Joseph Lowry on your ideology. How would, how would you define it? Well, you know, I'm a veteran of the civil rights movement. As Joe Lowry is and I broke with the movement in '68 over the issue of force busting and affirmative

00:13:13.510 - 00:13:31.250

action because I believed it was acting to the disadvantage of our people and now even the NAACP and the majority of black Americans are now reexamining that issue. There's just one dimension to what Joe said about the boycott in uh in, in Carolina. And also even

00:13:31.250 - 00:13:47.859

in Montgomery as Joe will remember the leadership of the civil rights movement did not embrace either effort at first. They were opposed to uh uh civil disobedience as a strategy. It was only when the young people ignored the established leadership. And went ahead and engaged in

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the bus boycott did the leadership then run around in front of the pack and embraced it as a principle, uh uh uh strategy and so I think that the leadership, uh, again will have to be pushed into changing. When the rank and file black Americans on

00:14:03.729 - 00:14:21.099

issues such as school vouchers and school reform will force the civil rights leadership to again uh uh embrace reform only after it's it's shoved down their throats the way the uh the the boycott was. There again we're facing a half truth and a partial truth uh

00:14:21.099 - 00:14:38.489

in North Carolina. You're right, uh, much of the national civil rights leadership did frown on the city, but there was never any objection to the bus boycott, uh, national leadership, uh, affirmed and, and, and, and supported. Uh, the refusal of, of blacks in Montgomery to ride

00:14:38.489 - 00:14:58.359

on the bus, uh, in indignity. So, so you again, Bob, you, you're wrapping yourself around half-truths. You're from Alabama. You're from, uh, Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I got a call from, uh, Lynette, Alabama. Good morning. Hello caller, you're on the air. We'll try one more time. Good morning.

00:14:58.450 - 00:15:12.190

How you doing? Good. How are you? I have a comment for Dr. Lowery. I just want to say that we appreciate his long hard struggle for civil rights, and he's going to be missed once he retired from SCLC, and I want to ask him where do

00:15:12.190 - 00:15:27.289

he think race relations is going to end up? And do you think the apology coming from the president is worth something without reparations? Thanks for the call. Before you answer his question or comment, you will be leaving at the end of next week? Yes, I, I,

00:15:27.450 - 00:15:44.369

I've decided not to seek reelection. I've been president 20 years. I was vice president from 6 from 57 to 67, chairman of the board from 67 to 77, and I've been president since '77, so I, I've decided not to seek reelection at our convention which begins

00:15:44.369 - 00:16:00.270

next Sunday in Atlanta. And your response to the caller's comment, let me see what, what was, what was the caller's comment you said that, uh, uh, uh, on race initiative by the president and the. Well, I, I don't think they're asking the president to apologize personally.

00:16:00.520 - 00:16:18.710

They're talking about an apology from on behalf of white people for slavery. I think there's a danger, uh, in the apology. Uh, and I mean thank the caller for his very kind comment, but I don't want apologies to be perceived as, as a benediction. It's an

00:16:18.710 - 00:16:32.429

opening hymn if there is to be an apology. We must not perceive it as perceive it as as the last word, uh, but if in fact, uh, and I don't want to debate it, I think the apologies have to be given by those who have been

00:16:32.429 - 00:16:46.150

the offenders and that the offended ought not to be a part that's come from the heart, but in case there is an apology, I would like to have it written on the back of the deed to my 40 acres and send it to me by my

00:16:46.150 - 00:17:01.219

mule. The New York Times this past week reported that uh the King papers may be sold to either Stanford or Emory University as a way to raise money for the King Foundation. Your reaction? Well, I talked with Dexter earlier this week after I saw that in

00:17:01.219 - 00:17:17.698

the newspapers, and he has put out on hold, uh, that that's to be, uh, tabled for a while and while they, uh, uh, look a little deeper into what might be done with the papers there has been a discussion going on for some time about. The

00:17:17.698 - 00:17:35.979

physical facilities that to house the papers, the King Center has had some problems in in providing the kind of um uh technological, uh, facilities that that are needed to preserve the papers, and they are discussed they have have discussed it with Emry earlier uh as you

00:17:35.979 - 00:17:50.415

know, uh, Doctor Carlson, who's at Stanford, uh, was involved in the papers, so, uh, that is something that we will expect to see some developments on the. Future, but right now it's on hold. And one final point, uh, in your mind, do you think that James

00:17:50.415 - 00:18:04.964

Earl Ray acted alone in the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, or was it part of a conspiracy? I think it's insulting to our intelligence to ask us to believe that James Earl Ray, a little petty thief who never did anything well in his life, could

00:18:04.964 - 00:18:25.290

orchestrate, plan and execute the, the, the assassination of Doctor King, then arrange his escape to Canada. To have access to the kind of computer facilities that could produce 3 photographs that look like him and forge passports and then go to Portugal and and Europe. No, there's

00:18:25.290 - 00:18:42.800

no way in the world that James Earl Ray could have acted alone. There was a conspiracy. Uh, Lloyd Jowers, a white Memphis businessman who operated a restaurant at the rooming house, has confessed a part in that conspiracy. Has uh confessed that he handled money from the

00:18:42.800 - 00:18:55.760

mafia. He knew of uh of government officials who participate in conspiracy meetings and he's willing to to to tell it all if they grant him immunity. His lawyer won't let him talk anymore. I've urged the district attorney in Memphis to grant immunity to the Lord. So,

00:18:56.739 - 00:19:13.020

so that so that we could satisfy the nation's hunger for truth. Back to your call, San Pedro, California. Good morning. Good morning. I just wanted to comment to the one man's remarks about the decrease in blacks and minority students in law medical schools. Um, the main

00:19:13.020 - 00:19:31.160

reason for that, according to the newspapers out here, is due to the dramatic decrease in applications. They're just not applying for the California and the Texas schools or universities. They're applying, um. Actually in the east, in the eastern colleges. So that has a significant impact on

00:19:31.160 - 00:19:49.900

that. Yeah it does, yeah, but there's a dimension of this, the whole race issue, and I certainly racial discrimination will and will continue to be a problem in America we requiring vigorous enforcement, but we must make a distinction between uh uh legal kind of challenges to

00:19:49.900 - 00:20:06.060

racial discrimination and affirmative action is somehow being an extension of that. You have as a part of the civil rights or or the affirmative action issue race norming. Which I think is outrageous and an insult to black Americans when you have a school in California that

00:20:06.060 - 00:20:23.250

has one standard of admissions test for blacks which is lower than for whites and a higher one for Asians and they call that race norming that to me is insulting and that's the form of affirmative action that we need to do do away with because if

00:20:23.250 - 00:20:39.109

we can come on the playing field. Of basketball and football and establish standards against which whites are judged then you can't tell me we can't do the same thing when we walk into the computer lab. It has to do with preparation and willingness to achieve and

00:20:39.109 - 00:20:56.270

for for civil rights leaders and others to focus exclu exclusively exclusively on the demand side to suggest that. That we should uh just allow people in regardless is really an insult to black Americans, you know, I, I support affirmative action in basketball you since you mentioned

00:20:56.270 - 00:21:10.510

basketball, Bob. I, I support efforts of, uh, of these teams to go to Russia and Yugoslavia and wherever they can go to find white players and to and to give them an opportunity. I think we ought to be very intentional about giving opportunities because, because white

00:21:10.510 - 00:21:21.479

men can jump in, in, in some instances and I think they ought to be given every opportunity to do so. But, but we don't say to those white men that uh when you shoot a 2 pointer, we'll count it as a 3 pointer because you've been

00:21:21.479 - 00:21:35.109

denied. Oh, but they do say that if you can't jump, you know, right here, we're gonna give you an opportunity to to learn how to jump, but you're gonna watch something, you're right. It's the opportunity that's they don't give him a guarantee or special privilege, right.

00:21:36.485 - 00:21:54.196

And you want to build up so you can knock him down. Nobody's ever asked for guaranteed, ask for equal opportunity. Joe, what is? Do you do you do you disagree with me to undo I'm asking I'm I'm asking you, you can't follow my answers, Bob. You

00:21:54.196 - 00:22:12.531

can follow your question, but you're gonna have to let me follow my answers. It it's a response to the deliberate attempts to keep exclude black and brown people and women and whatever has to be done to to to now have public policy include needs to be

00:22:12.531 - 00:22:29.219

done anything those are meaningful meaningless terms. What we're talking about is a is an institution. Reversing its policy and being as intentional about including as it was about excluding, that's all affirmative action is. This discussion will continue for another 25 minutes or so and uh later

00:22:29.219 - 00:22:46.040

we'll take you to Tudor to Tudor House, which is uh a home in Georgetown, 5.5 acres and a lot of history there. Silver Spring, Maryland is next. Good morning. Good morning. 4 years ago today, Vince Foster was found dead out of Fort Mercy Park in Virginia.

00:22:46.099 - 00:23:02.239

The only thing I've seen on this in the paper this morning, the fact that this is the anniversary. is the Back page of the We can review section of The New York Times, there's a full page ad. Which refers to the foster death. It's about a

00:23:02.239 - 00:23:18.989

program that 60 Minutes did on The um Uh, on the desk, let me just let me jump in and please continue. We want to show it to our viewers. This is what it looks like. It's called Mike Wallace the Clinton's lapdog. It is a, uh, new

00:23:18.989 - 00:23:39.339

videotape available, uh, produced by an organization called Citizens for Honest Government, and it cost 1995 plus shipping and handling. Yeah, I know it's, it's kind of interesting that, uh, we've had discussions, uh, with Doctor Lowry and Bob Woodson this morning on the, uh, Uh, Martin Luther

00:23:39.339 - 00:24:04.449

King assassination. Uh, we've just gone through the, uh, lengthy programs, a lot on C-SPAN about, uh, Watergate 25 years ago. Here we have a really an amazing controversy about the death of the White House counsel only 4 years ago, and we just had, uh, within the

00:24:04.449 - 00:24:25.420

last week, the independent counsel Kenneth Starr, coming out and declaring without presenting any evidence whatever, saying that, uh, this, he had concluded after 3 years that this was, uh, Uh, a suicide just as the park police and his predecessor Fisk had said. And he gives no

00:24:25.420 - 00:24:40.459

evidence to support this. It gets in the newspapers that this is true. There hasn't been a single article in any newspaper I've seen that has actually reviewed the evidence in this case, and there is an abundance of evidence published by the Senate Banking Committee, 2,672 pages.

00:24:41.369 - 00:25:01.140

And, uh, uh, it raises all kinds of questions. Nothing on television. There's going to be a program on MSNBC this afternoon at 3:30, but, uh, here we got your show, all the weekend shows, nothing at all about the, this enormous controversy over what how Vince Foster

00:25:01.140 - 00:25:14.280

died. I'm, I'm just amazed that. Yeah, let me just ask you very quickly, the report that you mentioned which uh came from Ken Starr is the 4th. Uh, study that had looked at the, uh, the Vince Foster suicide. So you still think there's some sort of

00:25:14.280 - 00:25:25.079

a, I don't wanna use, I don't want to put words in your mouth, but some sort of a conspiracy or cover up, is that what you're saying? Well, conspiracy is quite different from a cover up. How would you phrase it? There's no doubt that there's a

00:25:25.079 - 00:25:39.319

cover up. You have to remember this, but a cover up by whom? Well, you have to remember that the first investigation was left to the US Park Police, right, but a cover up by whom? Who's doing the covering up? The covering up is being done by

00:25:39.319 - 00:25:54.170

a combination of the media, which have failed to look into the facts in the case. And the cover up by the people who have failed to investigate the case. The park police made no investigation, but, but Coler, with all, with all due respect, do you think

00:25:54.170 - 00:26:08.630

collectively the media would try to, I mean with all the different sources of information out there that, uh, collectively that the media could could hide something like this? Could they hide it? They have they have hidden it. There, I, I would hide it? I just told

00:26:08.630 - 00:26:22.180

you that there, there's, there are two volumes put out by the Senate Banking Committee. I dare say that none of the three gentlemen sitting at that table there have looked at them, seen them, or read anything about them. And yet they contain a gold mine of

00:26:22.180 - 00:26:34.449

information. All the FBI reports about this case, the park police reports, the FISC reports, and there are not a half a dozen journalists in this country who have taken the trouble to even look at them or study them. Well, you have read it. Can you tell

00:26:34.449 - 00:26:50.500

us then what the rest of us have failed to see or that the media has missed or the FBI? What is it upon your reading of it? Have you discovered? Well, what I've discovered is that the park police who were entrusted with this case because they

00:26:50.500 - 00:27:07.260

said it was such a sensitive case that was left to them rather than being handed over to the FBI that the, uh, on the, the investigators who were on the scene immediately said, this is a suicide before they had done any investigation or whatever. Uh, 20

00:27:07.260 - 00:27:21.479

days later, they had a press conference in which they said officially there was a suicide. At that time they had not even tested the gun that was found in Foster's hand to see if it would fire. Mr. Lowry, well, uh, you know, millions and millions of

00:27:21.479 - 00:27:38.910

dollars have been spent. Mr. Starr is not investigating on behalf of the administration. He's investigating on behalf of the Congress, I believe. And uh I think if there were anything to be found, I, I, I certainly believe he, he would have, he would have found it

00:27:38.910 - 00:27:50.839

uh and I don't, I don't, I don't approve cover up anywhere and there was any further evidence that ought to be brought out I think it ought to be brought out, but as for now we've spent millions of dollars on this investigation 4 times. And each

00:27:50.839 - 00:28:03.839

time they come up with the same conclusion, we welcome our viewers watching, uh, overseas each and every Sunday, and, uh, we carry Prime Minister's Question Time, which will continue through the end of this month and then there will be a recess through, uh, the end of

00:28:03.839 - 00:28:22.920

September. We carry that each Sunday evening at 9 o'clock Eastern and Pacific Time. Our next call is from uh Saint Thomas in the Virgin Islands. Good morning. Good morning. I have a comment for Mr. Would just say that I agree fully with him that for for

00:28:22.920 - 00:28:40.479

African Americans and people of color that the standards should not be lowered. Thank you. I, I think what a lot of people are uh uh beginning to agree with that position. I just think we stay, Joe, too preoccupied with grievance. It's almost like a grievance industry

00:28:40.479 - 00:28:57.560

out there that thrives on, uh, holding the grievance of black Americans before the public rather than focusing on our strengths and our capacity. Dr. Robert B. Hill at Morgan State University has published a very exciting book that revisits his, his monumental work on the strengths of

00:28:57.560 - 00:29:14.130

black families. And yet you don't hear people on television or on in in the black community embracing this the way they do all the victims books uh that that decries what we do. Doctor Hill talks about uh that most black families are not on welfare. We

00:29:14.130 - 00:29:29.619

don't know about the. Families living in poverty but not of poverty that are raising children in low income crime infested neighborhoods that are not dropping out of school in jail on drugs. We don't know about how they achieve and what lessons we can learn about how

00:29:29.619 - 00:29:45.290

gangs have been stopped from fighting and and what we can do to divert resources as long as we stay focused on our grievance or or saying to white America, you owe us for the past and we can't achieve unless there's some special dispensation to us. It

00:29:45.290 - 00:30:03.930

just it communicates a really self-defeating message to our young people that somehow their faith is determined by what somebody outside does for them and to them as a precondition of their their progress. Joseph Flower, EJ Mills on a related note, facts in this comment just a

00:30:03.930 - 00:30:19.670

thought with regards to the apology which you mentioned earlier. The Civil War and prior to the war has little or no impact on our lives in the 90s. Jim Crow has touched all of us living today. That was total Southern Democrats. The Democrats should apologize. Well,

00:30:21.569 - 00:30:37.089

I think, uh, again I, I, I have no comment on the apology. Apology has to come from the person who did the offending, and I have no right, no responsibility to determine whether you ought to or not. Uh, again, let, let me caution us nobody's asking

00:30:37.089 - 00:30:54.339

for the lowering of standards. Nobody's asking employers to. Our unqualified people, all we're asking is equal opportunity and people who try to confuse people, uh, peel these straw men so they can then knock them down because they're vulnerable. Uh, we are, and I agree for once

00:30:54.339 - 00:31:13.310

I agree with you, Bob, and it shows that that you're growing bless you. uh, there are many success stories and black people have have have. Perform marvelously under the most adverse circumstances, and I agree with you that media ought to reflect the success stories and ought

00:31:13.310 - 00:31:33.709

to report on, on the constructive, creative, uh, lifestyles of many African Americans as well as report on those things that are negative. Who do you point to as individuals that that helped shaped your ideology, helped shape what you believe in today? Oh, Jesus Christ. To begin

00:31:33.709 - 00:31:49.390

with, people like Amos, Jeremiah, and then you come on up to the Frederick Douglasses and you come to the Martin Luther Kings and the WEB Du Bois and people like that, uh, they have shaped my ideas, but I have to begin with the fact that, uh,

00:31:49.400 - 00:32:05.560

even with affirmative action, I read that Jesus talked about a good shepherd who had 100 sheep. And 99 had good housing, health insurance, and all of that, and the good shepherd said, I'm not gonna take away what you've got, but I do have to leave you

00:32:05.560 - 00:32:20.444

just a minute here comfortable and go out in the wilderness one sheep, one of your brothers and sisters is out there in the wilderness without housing, without educational opportunity, without, without, uh. Health care. I gotta go out and see about that sheet and bring him back

00:32:20.444 - 00:32:34.125

because it's not good for the 99 for that one to be out there. I, I, I perceive that as affirmative action that influenced me tremendously. How about you? Same. I, uh, I'm Christ centered and, uh, Christ influences my life and also many of the stories of

00:32:34.125 - 00:32:47.530

the gospel, but I'd like to cite one that impresses me that talks to leadership and where it is lacking. It took Moses about 2 or 3 weeks to get the Egypt I mean get Israelites out of Egypt and 40 years to get Egypt out of the

00:32:47.530 - 00:33:03.449

Israelites, and I'd like to see if we can't uh direct some of that attention of expelling Pharaoh from those who are lost before they can enter the promised land. That's all I'm trying to do with Joe Lowry to get him to focus on getting getting white

00:33:03.449 - 00:33:21.930

folks out of him and getting this notion that somehow our. Progress is determined by what Pharaoh will permit us to do and do what uh uh with the with the uh the you enter the promised land. OK, but may I finish, I anyway, so what I,

00:33:21.969 - 00:33:37.760

we're trying to do, and those are the people who influenced my life. Doctor King did something else in terms of leadership. He never, even though he was the target. Uh, of, uh, of, of a conspiracy by J. Edgar Hoover to discredit him, Doctor King refused to

00:33:37.760 - 00:33:55.189

recruit black Americans to defend him against even these scurrilous personal attacks and also we also know in the civil rights movement chose Rosa Parks not because she was the first person to to deny a seat on the bus because she represented a kind of moral example

00:33:55.439 - 00:34:18.260

that we could follow. Yet today we found the NAACP honoring Mike Tyson, uh, considering people like uh the the NAACP just gave him the highest notike Tyson, I'm sorry. Don King, no, I, I stand corrected. Uh, Don King as as an example, uh, Snoop Doggy Dog

00:34:18.260 - 00:34:35.540

was nominated for the Image Award, and so we have really have to look internally to the to the community and say. Uh, have we not departed from the kind of moral example that King and the kind of the Frederick Douglass provided for us? These are issues,

00:34:35.659 - 00:34:51.774

Joe, that I think we need to legitimately discuss, debate, in inside so we can begin to move in and one of them now, Bob, you talk about self-determination, you talk about black. Not depending on the government. Don King is a good example of by his own

00:34:51.774 - 00:35:07.830

hard work, his own determination has overcome a barrier and has become a, a, a key player in in promoting sports and boxing in this country. Uh, you contradict yourself. No, some of the people, some of the people that he supposedly helped, he's also exploited. And so,

00:35:07.870 - 00:35:25.149

but, but that's it, but, but the point is, the major, the no, but the major point is that we always kind of look to millionaires as example when the real heroes in America today are the, the people in those neighborhoods who who labor without much recognition

00:35:25.149 - 00:35:39.824

are the ones who are really providing the glue that's keeping that community together and I would think that a national organizations and those that have access to the media like this should focus more. More attention on those silent heroes like I mentioned, the Alliance of concerned

00:35:39.824 - 00:35:54.544

men, men who who who risk their lives to reach out and and salvage the lives of these young men who are blowing their brains out, it seems to me that these are the kind of people we should be holding up for the public to acknowledge, not

00:35:54.544 - 00:36:10.129

people who uh who have questionable reputation. They are the real heroes and, and we must fight on both hands to to affirm them. And to provide opportunities for their children that they've been denied. A couple of other things from the morning newspapers and you've both done

00:36:10.129 - 00:36:22.254

your homework, so we'll have you go back to another article or two before we run out of time. This is an AP story that may be appearing in your hometown newspaper as well. It's based on newly released transcripts of a conversation between Lyndon. Johnson in July

00:36:22.254 - 00:36:36.375

1964 and uh Robert Kennedy, who was the attorney general in the Kennedy and early part of the Johnson administrations telling him that being vice president was a lousy job anyhow and he wasn't going to offer him Robert Kennedy the VP slot which later went to Minnesota

00:36:36.375 - 00:36:55.750

Senator Hubert Humphrey. What do you make of these tapes that continue to. Shed light into the Lyndon Johnson's character and the life inside the White House. That's Jones Jones I think that's what that's your area. I I, I, I, I'm fascinated by history. And uh history

00:36:55.750 - 00:37:11.550

is a is a mixed picture of of you know it it it it it revealing what happened to human beings and they weren't perfect just because they're historical uh and uh it's very interesting, but I'm more interested in the fact that that, uh, today the president

00:37:11.550 - 00:37:24.669

has, uh, launched an initiative on race and I hope I, I'm sorry to hear him say it wasn't gonna be any more programs because I think you sit around and talk without translating it into action. Uh, is a waste of time. We cannot get bogged down

00:37:24.669 - 00:37:41.729

in the paralysis of analysis. That's what Doctor King talked about. Detroit, Michigan. Good morning. Good morning, gentlemen. Good morning to all of you. Uh, this is a question that, uh, I would like to address to Mr. Woodson. I work in the automobile industry and uh I

00:37:41.729 - 00:38:00.449

noticed in hiring a skilled tradesmen, they will bring in skilled tradesmen from the suburbs who are not really skilled tradesmen, but they'll bring in young men. And they will train those people on the job, but when it comes to hiring black people and the skilled tradesmen,

00:38:00.949 - 00:38:14.810

it's hard for them to get in. They've got to take a test and they got to go to school and they got to do this. There are some skilled tradesmen, young men that I've talked to have bought apprenticeship license or whatever, and they bring them into

00:38:14.810 - 00:38:34.169

the plant. They get hired and the skilled tradesmen that's already in the plant will train these people. And that is what I call an unlevel playing field. Also during the Kla Thomas confirmation. There was a general. I don't remember his name, but he was one of

00:38:34.169 - 00:38:48.719

the people in high school who was voted, I guess, most likely not to succeed. So he went on to college. He, he went to college, he got a degree, a law degree from Yale. He didn't like being a lawyer, so he went to Harvard and got

00:38:48.719 - 00:39:07.459

a business degree. And he's doing very well in the world. Uh, Dr. Snead, the superintendent of our public schools here in Detroit, made the same analogy that, uh, Dr. Lowery just made. There are people who don't do so well in high school, but if they are

00:39:07.459 - 00:39:16.300

allowed to go on and pursue their goals or whatever, they tend to do real well. They become lawyers, doctors, and those kinds of things, even in the