00:00:01.509 - 00:00:34.220

Bill. Let me open by asking you to give me the date of where, when you were born and where I was born in uh Westminster California. Nearest Indiana. June 26th, 1897. Oh. And how many brothers and sisters? Um, 11 sister died in infancy and no other

00:00:34.680 - 00:01:12.220

Children? Oh, so you were an only child? Yeah. And your parents and grandparents on both sides were members of the church of Christ, Maude, Irene Powell. Um and um William Alfred Green. Oh, were married in uh Sosa. Yeah, about a year before my birth. And uh

00:01:12.230 - 00:01:51.599

which town did you grow up in? Um, my earliest childhood was at various places in Orange County, including um Anaheim. Not ana. No. So, uh Los Angeles recently. Oh, they uh my mother died when I was five. My father died before I was 10. Oh, I

00:01:51.610 - 00:02:12.039

didn't know your mother had, your mother died when you were five and your father when you were 10. Did you live with your father alone for about five years now? Um It seems to me that uh and my father did all the shaping of my childhood.

00:02:13.500 - 00:02:42.869

Um uh I uh I would not, uh, uh, gregarious type a child but love my father and loves the and, uh, learn to read. And before I started school, learn to read and, uh, do simple arithmetic. Which put me ahead a year in the, in my

00:02:42.880 - 00:03:19.610

schooling. Can you remember some of the books that you read as a child? Not really. No. Um, the, um, on my father's death, um, I live briefly with my uncle, So All Green for Anaheim. And uh then a few months later I moved to the forest.

00:03:19.619 - 00:03:38.919

Still. California, Sonoma County. Let me back up just a moment with your father was a dedicated Christian. How much did that shape your life? Did you read the Bible a lot? And um yes, I think so in those days, they were very much the custom to

00:03:38.929 - 00:04:06.800

memorize passages of scripture. Um I did my best at that sort of thing was the translation of the day, the King James. Oh, yeah. And uh tell me about your baptism, your age. And um I was baptized before I was 10. My uh uh Chris Condry

00:04:09.800 - 00:04:38.029

Condr, a um a carpenter preacher. I'll tell you Broadway and Wall. And that's sort of surprise is that in L A uh oh, Santa Anna Broadway. And what, what was the other street, the Broadway and Broadway and Walnut, Walnut. Now, is that the forerunner of the

00:04:38.040 - 00:05:05.799

north side church today or were you baptized at that church building? Yeah. Well, at the, at the old Broadband Walnut church building. Yeah. And that was in 1907. Yes. 19 6 or seven. Yeah, probably 19 7. Now, was your father sick at that time? Um, yes,

00:05:05.809 - 00:05:31.269

I think so. Although I was not much aware of it, he was already stricken with tuberculosis. Did he witness your baptism? Do you remember? I don't think he did. Do you know what his reaction was? I'm sure happy about it. 10 year old child don't remember

00:05:31.279 - 00:05:57.820

too much. Then you went to live with your maternal grandparents. The Powells in Forestville. Yeah, for one year and four months. Um somewhat less than a year. Um And your family arranged for me to stay in Forestville on board. Well, they made the move to Lake

00:05:57.829 - 00:06:20.000

County when school was up. I moved to Lake County with the Powell. But while you were in Forestville, is that where you attended the Bible reading by Ernest C Love. Now, had you met him before? No, I haven't. However, Ernest c love was a, was a

00:06:20.010 - 00:06:49.829

very outgoing oh man and very well received by Children as well as I don't. And uh it was very successful. I got enough uh teaching the Bible and memorizing scripture. Do you remember much about that class in 1907? I remember him. He was a big man,

00:06:50.660 - 00:07:15.950

a hearty hail person. And then you moved to Lakeport and you were there from 1908 to 1914 and graduated from Lakeport high school. Was there a church in Lakeport Christian church. First Christian church. Did they have the organ then? And, uh, your grandparents, the Powell? They

00:07:15.959 - 00:07:34.739

were members. But don, they didn't place membership. We went to the church. Oh, that's right. Your grandmother was, uh, that's where she died. Well, the, the, the grandfather was the same. It's a Christian church thing. Now, who preached, do you remember any of the preachers between

00:07:34.750 - 00:08:02.200

19 0 8, 1914? Um, no, I don't really. So, up until you graduated from high school was Ernest c love about the, the preacher. You remember the best? I can't remember the picture business very much. I was more interested in school, public school winning first place

00:08:02.209 - 00:08:22.019

in spelling matches and the like, yeah, that I love in church up there. So you weren't as active in that kind of. Then you graduated in 1914 and uh then you went down to Santa Ana after your brief job on the railroad to the Bible reading

00:08:22.029 - 00:08:48.739

by GW Riggs. Had you met him before that Bible reading? No. What uh what is your memory of him? How about the legs? My son. It was a very persistent preacher, the old fashioned kind. Um, the, um, he had a hand in the, and the uh

00:08:48.750 - 00:09:18.039

foundation of most of the churches of Christ in Southern California. Um, from the time he came uh to Los Angeles 19 five or six. Uh, for 20 years now, was he a product of the Nashville Bible school? So, he, he and brother Ernest, they love were

00:09:18.049 - 00:09:49.700

products of the natural problem. Both were students of David Lipson and, uh, um, the, the so called Bible school quote unquote, uh, was a favored method of intensive, a vital instruction. Um, many of the people, um, who led farmers' lives, uh, could afford to take off,

00:09:50.630 - 00:10:18.239

um, three months, three winter months uh for our intent to study of the Bible and uh kept a regular day schedule and uh similar to the public schools 9 to 12 every day. Uh and uh emphasis was placed on a topical study um of controversial subjects

00:10:19.919 - 00:10:39.289

so that we were, we were well informed and equipped. Yeah, well equipped to face the adventists and the Mormons Catholics. So uh Riggs taught this uh January February and March of 1915 from 9 to 12 every day. Was this in the church building there at uh

00:10:40.059 - 00:10:58.469

in Santa Ana the same place you were bad time. Now, do you remember much? Do you remember that pretty clearly your studies there? Yes, I am. I figured that my basic knowledge of the Bible as far as memory work is concerned is largely due to the

00:10:58.479 - 00:11:31.989

work of these two Bible. Read Earnest love and, and Gideon Riggs. Do you remember any of the other students that were with you in 1915? Did any of them become preachers? Um Um, May Wallace Chase. Um, and, uh, wait a minute. Oh, names. Now that I

00:11:32.000 - 00:12:02.400

know. Well, um, and Clara Walton, Lola Bullock. Now these are women, these last ones. Yeah, they are. So, these were co-educational schools. Oh, yeah, they were co-educational. They weren't preacher training. Many. A zealous woman goes out and does, does her own style of preaching. Well, now,

00:12:02.409 - 00:12:25.119

these were more than just memory classes though. They were, I had a book, a, a um guidebook. Uh You start with Advent is uh the, the two covenants, what the two covenants are, how the, how the old is gone away and quote scripture, quote scriptures to

00:12:25.130 - 00:12:44.510

prove this. It uh it gave us a written guide. I'd give anything to have a copy. Um Not the uh uh uh the notebook that I have, I could partly reconstruct it by memory, but I'd like to see it have the real thing. Well, that sounds

00:12:44.520 - 00:13:09.729

like there are uh a lot of apologetics. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, they were, yes. The, they had um and they had the track apologetic tracts, little, little leaflets and uh you'd have guide scripture guides to answer the, the questions and the challenges. Well, so part of the

00:13:09.739 - 00:13:33.330

purpose was to indoctrinate young people into the biblical positions of the restoration movement. Was there any church history involved? Any study of Campbells Stone? I can't remember. And then from there, let's see, you enrolled at the University of California at Berkeley in the fall of 1915.

00:13:34.690 - 00:14:02.460

Now, where did you begin worshiping when you became a student? Your freshman year at Berkeley um began worshiping in San Francisco. Uh A little congregation is met in the Bonai Bere Hall. How many members do you remember? Um with um oh, three or four dozen members.

00:14:04.989 - 00:14:22.450

Now, by the way, when did you preach? Your first sermon? Had you preached? All we did that. It was brother Riggs. All of the brother Riggs was preached, oh, practice sermons in front of him. So your first sermon would have been the spring of 1915? Well,

00:14:22.460 - 00:14:46.260

then when you enrolled in Berkeley in the fall of 1915, were you ready to do some preaching? Did you preach occasionally the rest of the body work too? Ralph says, uh, listen, Harris. My mind wasn't Ralph Chase Lucian Harris and who? Liar wisdoms. Now, were these

00:14:46.270 - 00:15:06.599

all, uh, young men who had studied under rigs? No, none of them have been under rig. But they've been, they've been well taught. Well, these were just the, along with you, you were the four that did the preaching in San Francisco. You just alternated them. And

00:15:06.609 - 00:15:23.099

then, how about Sunday evenings? Did you stay all day in San Francisco? I can't remember too well. Uh, I think, I think probably it was just a Sunday morning meeting at first. And then as we got others in that could take over the work while we

00:15:23.169 - 00:15:41.349

add the evening meeting. I can't remember just when the evening meeting was added. How did you get over there from Berkeley? Transportation, uh ferry, uh ferry and train, public transportation was much better there than it is now. Well, like from the campus from Berkeley, you would

00:15:41.359 - 00:15:56.630

take a train down to the ferry. Yeah. And then the third boat and then the, and then the car in San Francisco. San Francisco had a, had a very good, uh, transportation system. So, what time did you have to leave on a Sunday morning from Berkeley?

00:15:58.179 - 00:16:16.369

Maybe an hour? Is that all? That's just a guess. I think that then your second year, was it about your second or third year that you started having Sunday evening meetings in Berkeley at the Y MC A? Yes, I'm not sure. Just plan. But as soon

00:16:16.380 - 00:16:33.969

as the, a number of members on the East Bay grew, uh, something like the San Francisco number two or three dozen. Well, then they, they set up the morning services. They, uh, well, I'm not sure which came first morning or evening. Uh, the evening service would

00:16:33.979 - 00:16:58.179

have the advantage of the service of these boys that, that could preach. Right. Uh, and, uh, uh, on the other hand, uh, to the demanding of the time to do both morning and evening. And, uh, there is a problem. Do you remember any of your first

00:16:58.190 - 00:17:25.399

sermons? What the subjects were? Well, I was given an apologetic, uh, I, I could help, um, and these, uh, these doctrinal subjects. Now, now what, uh, the same sort of thing I was being taught in the Bible school. Yeah. Now it was about your sophomore or

00:17:25.409 - 00:17:55.069

junior year that Wh Trice moved over to San Francisco. Tell me about him and his family. Well, other types of, uh, part time, um, the New York insurance, part time preacher and, uh, uh, successful in both, both activities. He sold insurance. He was an agent for

00:17:55.079 - 00:18:18.310

the New York Life and he preached for the San Francisco. He was, he also was a product of the Nashville Bible school. Now, he moved over there from Fresno. He'd been preaching in Fresno. He moved over there from Fresno. Now, how long after that did TB

00:18:18.469 - 00:18:48.699

Larrimore move? Well, he was there. He was there while I was still an undergraduate. Oh, it must have been about uh my second or third year. We'll call it my third year. My first year there was 1915. Well, the third year would be 1918, 1917 or

00:18:48.709 - 00:19:10.560

18, but the price was there. And then when did brother Larrimore come? Um Well, brother Larimore had been there first. Oh, I'm getting a little tangled here but the Lama was there first. And um, and then the brother, brother Tr came along. Brother Tr settled in

00:19:10.569 - 00:19:39.800

San Francisco and brother Larmore settled in Berkeley. Oh. Um, and the sister, sister Laramore, who was a sister to, uh, sis sister of Cyril who was a sister to, uh, sister Larimore, brought her family, uh, to Barclay and, um, Jim so was a valuable addition to

00:19:39.810 - 00:19:54.050

our, our preacher staff. Jim Soul was a very good speaker. He won the, he won the state championship in debating high school debating. Is this the man who's now an elder at North Side? Yeah, it has been for years and years. I'm still a good speaker

00:19:55.160 - 00:20:16.780

and, um, so that, um, uh, brother Larrimore and sisters, they all lived in a, in a house on Durant Avenue there and managed to chop it up into apartments and we had quite a mess. But now where had, uh, the Lamos been before this time? Where

00:20:16.790 - 00:20:38.359

did they move from? Well, to tell you the truth, I'm not real sure he had a daughter who was established with their family down, uh, down near Fresno and I connect the Lamos as a, as a stopping, making a stop and en route in that area

00:20:38.770 - 00:20:58.239

because he lived in Fresno County for any length of time. I don't know. All I know is that his books and all associated with the South Alabama? Yeah. Now, tell me how he came to move to Berkeley. Well, I, I don't know but, uh, thinking of

00:20:58.250 - 00:21:18.979

his daughter and her family established in Fresno area. Why that would be an occasion? Possibly, I don't know. Well, where did the money come from? And the Berkeley in to get a full time preacher. Well, I, I don't know that, uh, the Lamons were not wealthy

00:21:18.989 - 00:21:36.989

people but they always seem to get along. So I judge that he, the, and he'd been tripped in if he had a little resources. What part did, uh, Sister Odell play in this? Well, yes, when she, when she arrived she was, she was well to do

00:21:37.000 - 00:21:56.089

and was able to build church buildings, our preachers. And did she help bring brother Larrimore out? I don't much think so. I don't know. Um, all I recall with her and brother Lamo is that she thought he was superannuated and, and she wanted him to move

00:21:56.099 - 00:22:14.810

on. And how long, how, how quick is she got that impression? I don't know. How old was he when he moved to Bristol? No brother Larrimore. How old was he when he moved? Well, he, before he left Berkeley. Well, he was, he was quite old or

00:22:14.819 - 00:22:32.900

in his eight and uh 10 years before that, why he would still be fairly old? Did she help build the church building in Berkeley? Sister of Odell. Uh uh she helped with cash donated and with loans. She put a big loan on there. I think it

00:22:32.910 - 00:22:48.449

was $15,000 or something. It looked like a million for the Berkeley people because there weren't very many of them and most of them are students or young people and, and, uh, she thought they ought to do more. It is a safe judgment to make. But, uh,

00:22:48.640 - 00:23:07.150

it doesn't get you very far. And, and that, that was the sort of a millstone hanging around us too when things weren't going just right to suit her. But she, she threatened to cut off the money. Well, I don't say that by any means but, but

00:23:07.160 - 00:23:24.189

that was somewhat the relationship with him. Now, when, how long was she in Berkeley? Oh, she had lived in Richmond, but Richmond had her part of Berkeley until her death. When did she die? Well, I don't know because she uh she outlived all the people we're

00:23:24.199 - 00:23:41.380

talking. I mean, she outlived all the stay of the people we're talking about and she had her way with brother Larrimore. He finally returned to Santa Ana and he died down there, you know, and is buried down there, I think. Um, well, then, uh when you

00:23:41.390 - 00:24:02.280

graduated in 1919, uh four years after your arrival in Berkeley was the church in Berkeley meeting Sunday morning and Sunday night, or were you still taking the ferry back over to San Francisco? San Francisco was the, was the basic place. Now, when, when I arrived there,

00:24:02.290 - 00:24:20.609

they told me that there was a meeting place out in East Oakland. Uh They're sort of fugitives from, you know, just skip here and there, whoever has a living room that they can see a bunch of people. Well, that's it. And uh oh, there was a,

00:24:21.780 - 00:24:41.579

there was a teacher down around the, the valley somewhere. We had a, oh, I don't think it was a daughter, like some young woman that traveled with him and his wife. I don't think it was in a scandal and they kind of made a, a, sort

00:24:41.589 - 00:24:55.540

of a church home in East Oakland somewhere. But, or for the summer they would at least, and then he'd go back to his school in the winter. It was off and on kind of thing. And I had a choice of that Oakland meeting or the San

00:24:55.550 - 00:25:15.739

Francisco meeting and the San San Francisco meeting looked more a little more stable than the East Oakland and was uh more accessible, I think really than the East Oakland. And so San Francisco became our kind of our base of operation. Certainly for a year, I would

00:25:15.750 - 00:25:30.040

say we must have been for two years before we had much uh supervision or outside health. When you say our home. Are you referring to the other students at Berkeley? Yes, I'm thinking that for the second year, at least there were, there were at least four

00:25:30.050 - 00:25:59.880

of us that worked together on the team and I think we got started earlier than that. I don't remember. Oh, There was still another man, a preacher named Max Lang Pap um Langt AA PM L um So uh was a bachelor later. He married and uh

00:26:00.569 - 00:26:18.989

and he did preaching in this, an Ivory Hall. But he went down, down the San Joaquin Valley somewhere to see his girlfriend on Sunday left us with the meeting. You know, he wasn't, he wasn't a steady what you'd call a steady local preacher, but he did

00:26:19.000 - 00:26:40.030

help. Everyone helped. Well, these other three boys that helped with the preaching, Ralph Chase, Lucian Harris and Lemoine Williams. Did they remain faithful to the church? Did any of them continue to preach? lemon Williams did not. Um Lucian Harris remained a faithful worker and the number

00:26:40.040 - 00:27:00.949

one leader in the birth of church, he was the, he was the one who had the dirty work to do to uh bridge, make the bridge between Mrs o'dell and Valero. My mind was a good person. He, he tried to sense the whole situation. Brother Lama

00:27:01.219 - 00:27:18.920

was old and was was getting people and, and it would be better if he'd go. And uh he chose this delicate language that could be chosen, I guess to communicate that fact. And uh meanwhile, of course, he has established his position as a leader in the

00:27:18.930 - 00:27:41.439

church there. You're talking about Lucian Harris now, Lucian Harris, when did you see, oh, when did La Moy Williams fall away? Well, he um went into public school teaching, he became a high school principal and uh he'd go places where there weren't churches of Christ, nothing.

00:27:41.449 - 00:28:01.219

Maybe he'd go to the Christian church. I didn't really keep track of him. He did show up at Church of Christ sometimes. But I, I'm fairly sure that he never established a, a dependable local home, home work for Church of Christ labor. And how about Ralph

00:28:01.229 - 00:28:21.599

Chase? Oh, well, he's a, he's an elder in New Kaiser California even today. He still living very, a very, uh, he's, he's older than I am but he's got more to get up and go than I have. Oh, would you ever get with him? Uh, rarely.

00:28:21.609 - 00:28:38.229

We, we, we miss it too. We, we, it's a great treat for us. And how about Lucian Harris? Is he still living? Died? Oh, he died. Yes, he died, uh, some years ago. I don't know how his wife aa lived on and died only in the

00:28:38.239 - 00:29:01.449

last year. Then you, uh, were married in 1919, right after your graduation to Loo Mallory. Is that her name? And then you lived one year in the, uh, Samoa American Samoa. Now, for that whole year you just worshiped in your home out there in American, Samoa

00:29:01.459 - 00:29:21.780

in 1919, 1920. Were there any baptisms of natives or any teach? You did have some natives that worshiped with you occasionally. And then you came back for one year of teaching at El Monte and then five years in Alhambra. Now, did you preach frequently in the

00:29:21.790 - 00:29:39.589

five years between 1921 and 26 at Alhambra? Oh, yes, that's the most, the most I ever came to being a regular, anybody's a regular preacher. Uh, I, I explained it to you that I was, I was committed to that practice. Really. Every Christian ought to be

00:29:39.599 - 00:30:00.579

a preacher. Right. And these were intelligent people. They knew the Bible and some of them are very good. And, uh, for me to crowd, to, to crowd myself in there and crowd them out was, uh, uh, I regard the poor strategy. Um, but, um, it really

00:30:00.589 - 00:30:17.640

worked out about right. They were all men who worked to earn their living and they didn't, they didn't want too much preaching to do. Uh And if I was willing to preach every Sunday evening, that was the, the lesser crowd. Supposedly, more sinners come to the

00:30:17.650 - 00:30:34.579

evening. I don't know whether they did or not. It worked very, very well. So you preached almost every week on a Sunday night, Sunday night. Now you were at uh for five years, you were principal of the school or t teacher in, at Alhambra High School.

00:30:37.979 - 00:30:58.130

Now, who else was preaching in that in 1921 to 26 was GW Riggs around the Los Angeles area. Well, of course, in the Los Angeles area, churches were growing. Um I was not uh directly connected with any of them except friendly ways, you know, like they,

00:30:58.420 - 00:31:15.500

they are together and uh brother Riggs, brother Riggs had a little hand in the start of the Alhambra church. Brother Riggs was a sort of a lone wolf. He liked to go to town where there was no church in pits at 10. And, and uh in

00:31:15.530 - 00:31:32.560

the city, did you come here? Sounds like the Apostle Paul. Yeah. Well, um, the church in Alheimers started that way. Brother Riggs had the tent up before we knew. You see, there was already a Nucleus Sitel Street is the old base, been established for years. And

00:31:32.569 - 00:31:47.030

uh there was at least a half a dozen Alhambra people or people who lived nearer to Alhambra than to Los Angeles that were going to Cel Street. And uh, so when brother Riggs pitched the tent, there was a little grumbling. He said, well, who come, how

00:31:47.040 - 00:32:07.770

come he just butt in here then? Well, that's his method. And you couldn't just exactly denounce him publicly for preaching the gospel. But well, did he have a good meeting? Um Well, I don't think it was very productive. I don't think they, maybe I don't think

00:32:07.780 - 00:32:26.060

they had any baptism in that meeting. Um It's hard to get baptism, just go pitch a tent, but the ring wasn't that good or Alzheimer was too tough a play. Uh But we held a meeting, not the brother Riggs, a member of it, but the man

00:32:26.069 - 00:32:39.030

who'd been meeting in Alhambra, we said we want to get a meeting and decide what to do about the church there. We got together and decided we'd better start on our own and run our own show. And ra rather than to have brother Riggs there. We,

00:32:39.040 - 00:32:55.739

he was, he was not entirely welcome and yet his, his coming there was an incentive to wake up and do something. And so he did a good work, I think now during that five years, you met George Pepperdine for the first time. Where was he? Well,

00:32:55.750 - 00:33:18.449

he was, uh, he was making himself uh successful in business in Los Angeles. And um, he never, I don't think uh he uh ever visited us in, in Alhambra. Now he has, I have it, he visited in us in Berkeley and he may have visited in

00:33:18.459 - 00:33:38.640

Alhambra, but it would be a, a discursive visit, you know, just a casual visit with uh which congregation was he a member of? Oh Southwest Southwest in Los Angeles. Now, did he start that church? Well, as far as I know he was the principal principal Instigator

00:33:38.650 - 00:34:01.000

of him. Now, how did you come to meet him in? What connection? Well, at the general meetings, um neighborhood meetings, you know, get together singings and whatnot. He, he was a well known man and I, I never did establish much of a, a close uh uh

00:34:01.089 - 00:34:20.389

contact with him. He never came to me for advice or anything like that. He knew I was doing my stuff and he was approving of it. It wasn't any class that we just weren't that close together. Ok. Now, let's move to 1926. The fall of 26.

00:34:20.870 - 00:34:46.299

When you returned to uh Berkeley, your first wife had died the year before 1925 of tuberculosis. Um And she died in, in Altadena, which it wasn't in, in Alhambra. Actually, when we have, they see Aldeen is an uphill p and, and it supposed to be drier

00:34:46.309 - 00:35:05.639

and sunnier and so on. That was one last last straw. I was trying to save the day and you didn't have any Children. So when you returned to Berkeley in the fall of 1926 to work toward your phd, you were uh single again. Now, when did

00:35:05.649 - 00:35:31.570

you marry Ruby Lanier? Well, within a year, now, how long had you known her? Um, well, uh a matter of some months, uh now her father, her father worked for the California cotton mills in East Oakland. He had worked in cotton mills in Alabama. And uh,

00:35:32.189 - 00:35:49.189

he believes in Bible schools and he had three Children and he put them all in the school up there. Now, there's a, there's a school in Brighton, uh Pacific Christian Academy and the school school in Santa Rosa, Santa Rosa Christian Academy was a kind of an

00:35:49.199 - 00:36:09.949

offshoot of the Breton Christian Academy. Well, this the uh the Lanier Children went to the Santa Rosa Christian Academy were taught by a gardener. Uh There are three Gardner brothers and I'm not sure I'll get the initials clear there. Uh Walden Gardner and elder in Salinas

00:36:09.959 - 00:36:31.620

was one of the three Children and Helen um uh Helen uh uh Gardner Wakefield was the oldest of them. It was a very consecrated family. They were, they were uh pupils of J and Armstrong. They were the Armstrong stripe. You could tell it right now. And

00:36:31.629 - 00:36:54.020

where had they studied under Armstrong? Where, where had they studied under J and Armstrong? Well, at the Nashville Bible school is Armstrong on that fact, you know. Yeah, Armstrong must have had some strong ties with Tennessee. Of course, he got to Oklahoma. Uh the, the mis

00:36:54.250 - 00:37:15.860

were um Alabama people and then they moved to Texas. Lou Ruby was born in Texas. And where was this school that she went to under the Gardner brothers, Santa Rosa. And uh so um brother Lair, brother Lair and I stuck up a good acquaintance. He's very

00:37:15.870 - 00:37:30.340

easy person to get acquainted with. I saw him. And uh he said, well, uh you know, the up at center other, they need preachers. They need some young people to fill in the schedule said I can make a date for you if you want a preaching

00:37:30.350 - 00:37:49.409

appointment like that. And I said, OK, I know some people of thy road. It'd be nice to go. And so here I was inside a rosa um and uh young and irresponsible and what do we expect next? Now, when was this fall of 26 or 1927?

00:37:49.419 - 00:38:07.979

Fall of uh let me see, I talked, I, I tried to. Oh, I guess it's the fall of 27th here. I'm getting my date back. Well, your first year back at Berkeley was 19, fall of 26 26 27. So, did you preach in Santa Rosa your

00:38:07.989 - 00:38:31.340

first year back? Um, well, I guess I did. Oh, yeah, that's when you first met Ruby. No, there was a decent pause there. I didn't pay for the first day or even the second. But, uh, among the young people in the Santa Rosa seniors, my, uh,

00:38:31.350 - 00:38:49.929

she was, she looked the best of them to me. She was, uh, she was a little bit older. She was, uh, 20. I'm gotten it from high school. I was 30. So it wasn't too unbalanced an affair. Some people speak a book of robbing the cradle

00:38:49.939 - 00:39:10.909

but it didn't bother me a little bit of me. So, you were married in 1928? Yeah, I see it here. April 20th, 1928. 0, yeah. How long did you? I better put in the, I better put in that, that extra year. I didn't. Uh, yes, Lou

00:39:10.919 - 00:39:35.949

died in May in May of, uh, of 26 and I made out another school year. So it would be May of 27 that I would be making apartments inside of road, I think. Then when you were married, uh, did you live in Berkeley? Yeah. And you

00:39:35.959 - 00:39:58.320

completed the quarters where in narrow quarters? Berkeley is? No, place for a comfort of life. And then when did you graduate? Which class were you in? I don't know. What do you mean? When did you, when did you graduate with your phd? Uh, 1930 1930. Now,

00:39:58.330 - 00:40:21.070

did you have any Children then? No, let's see. Um, 1930. Yes, that must have. Yeah. Yeah, we have one child. Now, your first son was William Larrimore. You know, named for who William Larimore. Larimore from Larimore was from my father. He was named for U and

00:40:21.080 - 00:40:43.739

TB Larimore. And, oh, but then, then, uh yeah, that's right. And then Ralph got uh Ralph Lanier Lanier from his uh mother's maiden name. Your second son was Ralph Lanier named for and the other from two family friends, Ralph, he had a, had an uncle named

00:40:43.750 - 00:41:01.040

Ralph too. That was not a close connection. However, but part of the reason he was named Ralph also for Ralph Wilburn. Yeah. Now Ralph Wilburn at that time was a member of the Church of Christ. He's been with the Christian church for years. But I, I

00:41:01.050 - 00:41:18.989

don't think he, I don't think he's really affiliated with the Christian church. I think he's a freelancer. Now, how did you come to know Ralph Wilbur? Oh, he was a, he was a classmate of Ruby's and Sander Rosa. Oh, he was younger. Ruby was 20 Ralph

00:41:20.159 - 00:41:39.219

was about 18. And uh, well, then did you continue that friendship after you moved to Berkeley. You get out. Yes. Um, oh, Ralph preached in Berkeley when, when we needed a preacher. Ralph. Ralph was a very good preacher, a very good speaker and he, he preached

00:41:39.229 - 00:41:56.199

a boy preacher in the upper on Santa Rosa and we knew him, we knew how good he was. And so when we needed a preacher, why we called Ralph and uh um he stayed with us. I'm not sure how long, uh at least a year and

00:41:56.209 - 00:42:17.250

I think maybe two years. And meanwhile, the Berkeley church is growing uh out, out stripping the wall about the best growth that Burke the church ever had was when Ralph Lilburn was there. This was early thirties. Um uh There was an increasing number in Oakland and

00:42:17.260 - 00:42:41.050

they decided it was high time for an open congregation. And uh Sister Anderson, um brother and sister Anderson who had been uh oh, prosperous promoters of the Burka Church were for the move. So the, the Anderson's kind of took the place of, of uh we uh

00:42:41.939 - 00:43:04.239

um Richmond of the Odell. They took the place of Sister o'dell. Sister o'dell. The, she sort of play the part Sister Odell did for Richmond to get started there. What they did for East Oakland with a different temperament. There was no, there was never any, I

00:43:04.250 - 00:43:21.550

don't think there was any wrong. That's what I'm saying. That's a risky thing. You get a, get a big loan with the church to their members and then if things don't go, just the, just the way the loaner thinks they ought to get cross purposes. Now,

00:43:21.560 - 00:43:42.179

did you continue to do some preaching in the 19 thirties at the Berkeley Church? Well, yes. Uh as I worked on with my university career, I, I became more, uh my time became more committed to that so that I didn't have as frequent appointments. I did

00:43:42.189 - 00:44:00.620

have appointments though, as soon as you graduated with your phd in 1930 were you added to the faculty at Berkeley? In fact, I had been in a manner I did already. I was a, I was an associate in Latin. Now there's three degrees. There's, there's a

00:44:00.629 - 00:44:24.770

system in Latin which is the lowest teaching degree there. It's not a degree, the lowest teaching post that there is. And then there's an associate and Latin which is uh a better pain and uh represent some advanced students more often associated. Bin Laden. How was that,

00:44:24.780 - 00:44:45.840

sir? Uh, at least two or three years. What's the third stage? Just the regular faculty status? It's not, not regular faculty. No, I said, what is the next stage after the structure? Oh, instructor, instructor. And they don't, not all people take that stage. They, they may

00:44:45.850 - 00:45:10.989

get appointed as assistant professor without instructor. I was made an instructor one year. Mhm. How many, then, how many years were you? Assistant professor? Well, longer than I ought to be. That, that was where I slowed down and I was lucky to ever get my past

00:45:11.000 - 00:45:35.280

that freaking break stage. You later became a full professor. I did later. Yes. But there's another step there. The associate professor, uh, is a pet physician with tenure. That's all I breathed freely when I got to be an associate professor. In fact, a good many, um,

00:45:35.290 - 00:45:55.260

stay at the associate professorship for life when they bring out the list of uh professors emeritus at commencement. Well, I noticed that there's about half as many uh associate professors in America says there are full professors in America, the largest group would be the the full

00:45:55.310 - 00:46:16.459

professors. And then the next week, about half that margin of the associate professors and then the others are miscellaneous grades. You can, you can get um a career. Uh some departments don't get phd S and they don't give the um there have been changes in the

00:46:16.469 - 00:46:45.649

policy about promotions, but there are numerous titles that are not professorship that nevertheless uh give life tenure and those of course, don't have taste on there. Commencement program. When did you first get interested in Augustine? Well, we had a uh visiting professor. I know one here.

00:46:58.419 - 00:47:31.379

The last question over, how did you first get interested in Augustine? Um A man came to teach in our summer session who was fascinated with Augustine and I picked up his enthusiasm that was early thirties shortly after you joined the faculty. Yes, I guess so. And

00:47:31.389 - 00:48:01.270

then how much writing did you do on Augustine? Oh, uh not very much in independent writing but work on text. My work was really more on uh Italian on uh Latin, Latin style and vocabulary and grammar, but then it was on uh Auguste as a right

00:48:01.280 - 00:48:26.820

in a row. Uh theology. Now, why did you pick Augustine? How did he complement your major interest? Um The study of Augustine's text was a wide open field. There was no question about the uh the need of the uh production and it lie within the field

00:48:26.830 - 00:48:56.169

of my general interest that is Christian interest. Did uh the fact that he was Catholic pose any problem. Um It means that uh a protestant cannot uh fully endorse all of the positions and viewpoints that Augustine takes. But in the meanwhile, there is a plenty that

00:48:56.179 - 00:49:29.649

uh uh show a remarkable appreciation off of a Christian doctor and arouse the inspiration of any reader, by the way. Is it pronounced Augustine or can it also be pronounced Augustine? Uh I have decided that for a rough guide uh when uh I'm Catholic pronounces, her

00:49:29.659 - 00:49:52.389

name is Saint Augustine. A protestant has Augustine didn't know let's talk about issues for a moment. Some of the issues that confronted churches of Christ in the first part of this century, the anti Sunday school movement. Uh Did you have any awareness of that feeling in

00:49:52.399 - 00:50:19.590

California? Uh Yes, somewhat. Uh but not uh uh seriously affecting the, uh the main current of uh evangelism and, and the church activity in California. What about the pre millennialism issue that began probably around 1918 and continued into the mid thirties? Now, that was a serious

00:50:19.600 - 00:50:50.850

question uh in California. Well, uh not so much because uh of the differences uh in the millennial of the doctrinal basis itself, but because of the attitudes, personal attitudes held uh toward a belief in it, some people believe that uh it, it should be tolerated and

00:50:50.860 - 00:51:21.969

other people believe that it should be uh quite uh vigorously uh suppressed. Now, what was the Foy Wallace position? And how well was it received in California? Um Well, one of us had many friends in California and uh they uh uh o op opposition of pre

00:51:22.020 - 00:51:48.560

millennialism uh took the farm uh with many of them, uh also expulsion from the brotherhood, rejection from the brotherhood. Uh If there was a question, uh how about Prema line now that a severe in attitude was unacceptable, I think to the majority of brethren and uh

00:51:48.860 - 00:52:11.139

only gradually did it supply. Now, how about your own personal study? Did you do a lot of study on the issue of pre millennialism? Uh I think I did uh as much as any uh debatable question that arose among us. And uh I was satisfied that

00:52:11.149 - 00:52:37.000

uh uh the, the pre position as a whole untenable and people, all the, all the brother who knew me, knew my position, but both by what I had written and by what I had said and I don't think it affected me very much. Now, what did

00:52:37.010 - 00:53:04.750

you read on the subject? What were some of the things you read on the subject? Um, I read the bows bowl, the Bit Ne and Wallace today and, uh, numerous articles. Now, did you come out of it in 100% agreement with F Wallace's position? Um, no,

00:53:04.760 - 00:53:27.310

in, in general, I, I agree with him on the second coming in the millennium. Uh, but I don't, uh, I don't see my way clear to withdraw fellowship from people who I have different views. And then were you saying that gradually the California churches rejected the

00:53:27.629 - 00:53:57.739

harshness of Foy's approach and methodology. Uh What about, uh, the one cup issue was that widely felt in California? I don't think that that was, uh, a serious question. It's too easy to, uh, to say one cup or many cups and it's no difference, did it?

00:53:57.750 - 00:54:27.120

So, it wasn't an issue in Berkeley now, when Pepperdine College started in 1937. Uh, did you shortly after that, begin teaching some on, in summer sessions? Um, uh, I think so. Uh, I talk in the summer session rather early in Pepperdine's history. Uh, I'm not sure

00:54:27.129 - 00:54:52.090

whether it was the second or third year now. Who got you on the faculty? Um, WB West. Oh, and then you also were close friends with Wade. Ruby. Yes, Wade and Ruby. Wade and I had been close friends, cooperators in every way. But the one after

00:54:52.100 - 00:55:15.909

here left Berkeley for t now, when the 20th century Christian started in 1938 you became part of that editorial board. Who got you on, who got you involved in the 20th century Christian? Well, I think JP Sanders perhaps more than anyone else. And who was the

00:55:15.919 - 00:55:36.189

other name that I didn't care a while ago, you mentioned another man. Uh, Whitton, Whitton, Woodrow, Woodrow, Whitton. Now, how did you know him? Was he from Pepperdine? He preached in Berkeley for two or three years? Oh, I see. How long did you continue to write

00:55:36.199 - 00:55:54.360

for the 20th century Christian? Oh, I don't know. 10 years, I suppose. Well, come to think of it. I've seen your articles in the fifties. Uh, so you were still listed on the editorial board, I think on in maybe longer than you remember, perhaps a quarter

00:55:54.370 - 00:56:22.010

of a century. And then when the restoration quarterly started in 1957 you were one of the seven, I believe, the first seven founders. How did that come about? Who got you involved in that? Um, JW Roberts, um, had to asked me to, uh, participate from the

00:56:22.020 - 00:56:53.060

beginning of the paper. Mhm. And, uh, what was your motivation in accepting? Oh, well, I was interested in the paper and thereby displayed my, my interest and support of the paper. Well, I mean, did you, what was your dream for the paper? What did you wanna

00:56:53.070 - 00:57:27.139

see it become? Um, I was in the hope that, um, articles, um, would, uh, be in sufficient number, uh, to be confined to, uh, conservative believers and to stand paper to stand for a defense of, uh, uh, conservative, uh, teaching of well known in the churches

00:57:27.149 - 00:57:51.530

of Christ. Now, did you know Jw Roberts before this time, uh, from occasional meetings with a slight and he's the one you think that suggested your name? I think so. Yeah. Now, how soon after the Thomas also, uh, did you know Jack Lewis at the time?

00:57:52.250 - 00:58:18.149

Um, uh, slightly, uh, I knew, uh, um, all the other Lewis at Abilene, Lemoine Lemoine Lewis, uh, personally Lemoine Lewis was a little better known to me than Jack. Now, how soon after the quarterly started, did you begin to have some doubts that, that you were

00:58:18.159 - 00:58:45.290

not in agreement with everything that was being published? Um, it's hard to say exactly. Uh, I know I began noticing, uh, positions in book reviews which could only be justified by a liberal physician, uh, from early issues of the paper and, uh, how it was advanced

00:58:45.300 - 00:59:07.590

in that. I, it would be hard to say. What was your connection? Let's switch from periodicals for a moment. What was your connection with the, uh, some of the churches in Europe when you would go on sabbatical, uh you must have went on sabbatical in 1937

00:59:08.260 - 00:59:37.860

and then again, maybe seven years later, 1944 and then seven years later, 1951 did you go every seven years? Um, I think so. Um, 33 sabbaticals and uh separated, 2nd and 3rd, separated by it, seven there interval. And, uh you went to France, Germany and Italy.

00:59:38.800 - 01:00:05.040

Yeah. Now, did you do any preaching over there? Um No, not really. I did teaching. And uh where did you teach now at the University of Milan or uh at the, at the Bible fence? The fence Bible school? One year, one year of teaching in Italian.

01:00:06.439 - 01:00:27.419

That's a Florence Bible school. Now, were there any congregations in Paris when you were there in 1937 or 38 Paris? Um The church was founded in Paris and of course, in my, my second, our second stay in the was sabbatical. Is that when Maurice Hall went?

01:00:28.929 - 01:01:00.419

Is that when Maurice and Maurice Hall left? Yeah. So Maurice Hall and Melvin Anderson. And where were you at in Germany? Um And um Munich one year and in Heidelberg one year. Oh, it's the Pepperdine Extension, Pepperdine Extension in Heidelberg. Yeah. Now, uh during your stay

01:01:00.429 - 01:01:22.889

at Berkeley, uh what were some of the issues that confronted the church at Berkeley? It had a good growth for a while. And then wasn't there some internal division at Berkeley? I think there have never been any uh serious uh internal divisions. Uh There would have

01:01:22.899 - 01:01:51.649

been uh personal difficulties. Uh How about uh 10 ounces, uh the church indebtedness and so on. But uh nothing that I would say like, uh uh a uh split in the church. I never been that. Let me talk for a moment about your teaching in addition

01:01:51.659 - 01:02:09.199

to teaching at Berkeley. You've been on the faculty at Pepperdine College. You taught two summers at Harding College in Searcy were both those summers in Searcy. No, you've never taught at the Memphis graduate school. Oh, no, no, no. They're both in uh in that, both in

01:02:09.209 - 01:02:32.659

Cersei, both in Cersei and one summer in Abilene and one year as the Dean of Ibaraki Christian College and then one stay at Pepperdine's Extension in Heidelberg and one stay at the Florence Bible school. Now, uh that's quite a cross section of uh of teaching in

01:02:32.669 - 01:02:58.790

the brotherhood school. Uh Relate to me again, the conversation with Don Morris, uh relative to the board of trustees of Abilene Christian College. Looking for a president in 1940. What did d inform you several years later, inform me as to a rumor uh that uh that

01:02:58.800 - 01:03:25.560

I was considered uh for the presidency, uh It was never proposed to me. Um Does that answer your, what did Don Morris? Uh why did he uh feel that your name had come up? Um He remarked that uh there was a few phd S among the

01:03:25.570 - 01:03:48.600

churches of Christ who were qualified for college teaching. But uh uh apparently they thought that they would so possibly select me uh for lack of something better. Now, let me take a moment and mention some names and I'd like for you just to give me whatever

01:03:48.610 - 01:04:05.399

memory you have of them. Uh And I may prompt you with some more questions, but I'm really fascinated by your memories of people, particularly those who have died and, uh, the persons that I never met, but I'd just like to know your memory of them. Uh,

01:04:05.409 - 01:04:39.399

let me begin with, uh GC Brewer. Did you meet him on occasion? Yes. Uh What's your memories of him? I remember him this up. It was a very, uh, was it very impressive, effective man, thoroughly devoted to, uh, to the biblical mass and, uh, a man

01:04:39.409 - 01:05:02.159

of, uh, fine personality. Was he a good preacher? Did you ever hear him preach? Yes. Yes. Would you have called him pretty much, uh, middle of the road? Would he have represented the center of the brotherhood at his peak? Um, I think so in, in most

01:05:02.169 - 01:05:25.239

respects. Uh, but not in, in reference to communism. Communism. What was his, he was burned up alive. He was dis Brewer was, was no tolerator of communist. Oh, he was no tolerator. He was a forerunner of JD Bales and George S Benson. Well, that's interesting. Now,

01:05:25.250 - 01:05:47.469

didn't JD Bale stay in your home while he was a student at bur, did he actually live there for several years? How long? Well, I don't know, um, as far, um, varying period but, uh, I, I think the periods of weeks, if not months that he's

01:05:47.479 - 01:06:10.600

been there, my mind's a little bit hazy there. I preachers with, um, uh, with lives, uh, about, uh, have another baby. I've been in our house more than once now. The first bail baby was born uh was not, was born in the hospital that was nursed

01:06:10.610 - 01:06:33.090

in our place. And uh that that has happened more than once. Well, bales must have been a fond of GC Brewer then. Yeah. Yeah, because that sounds like they had a similar love there and anti communist. What about um Sh Hall? Did you know him? How

01:06:33.100 - 01:07:00.850

do you remember him? Well, I remember him as a, it was a very um rod uh effective worker uh saying uh a day of progress for the churches of Christ in southern California interested in, in building. For instance, the central church of Christ in Los Angeles

01:07:00.860 - 01:07:29.050

was a partner perhaps largely due to the efforts of a to was he always faithful to the church. He remained strong to the end. How about TB Larrimore again? Uh We talked about him at lunch today. Um You got to spend a lot of time with

01:07:29.060 - 01:07:53.429

him in his home. This was in. No, not uh not that close. We've hardly prate on the on the, have, uh met him repeatedly and like him. What, uh what was your reaction to his scholarship of the Bible? Is he a good student of the word?

01:07:53.750 - 01:08:28.640

Let's see. We're talking Larimore, Larimore. Um One hesitates. We talk about scholarship for a person who doesn't learn or background. Um, uh, he's, um, at his best, uh, described by Larrimore and his buzz, uh, as a, uh, as an old fashioned, um, farmer. Um, but uh

01:08:28.649 - 01:08:55.830

as a, as a devout personality and the complete confidence in the, in God's providence and uh complete love for the people that he has to deal with. No one could equal one. How about Foy Wallace? You met him on occasion? How was your memory of him?

01:08:56.819 - 01:09:22.499

Well, I think that brother Wallace is a, is a sincere man, but he did uh a great deal to arouse the brotherhood, particularly his closer friends uh about the uh menace of communism and also the uh of the thrust that pri alone was in uh was

01:09:22.508 - 01:09:51.399

making or had threatened to make the churches the spirit with which he attacked Cremo. I could not share. What about his uh when you talk of uh of Larrimore, you talk of him being devoted, very Christ like and, and humble. Did Wallace share those characteristics? I

01:09:51.490 - 01:10:17.220

don't like to judge a man's humility. I would be reluctant to say yes or no to that question. Um um uh When I am restraining myself from agreement with his uh uh severity at times why I cannot at the same time be well praising him for

01:10:17.229 - 01:10:43.459

his humility. But uh that is human judgment, I think from anything like a final verbally. All right. Well, not knowing either man. Uh just from my own study, Larimore seems to have come down in history as the man of great childlike faith, devotional, soft spoken Wallace

01:10:43.470 - 01:11:03.410

has come down as the uh the champion, the defender, the fighter, uh a, a different stripe, certainly both Godly men and yet their characteristics have come down and, and never having met either man. I was curious to see your own reaction to both. Is, is that,

01:11:03.419 - 01:11:22.979

is that a pretty fair way that history has treated them? You know, I told something to my wife before I left home. Said one thing I, I remember no problem uh reading LA on as far as uh one of the animal book uh in the comment

01:11:24.080 - 01:11:48.640

made by President Larimore about controversy within the brotherhood said that uh uh he would have, uh he would like to avoid that controversy. He said it, it may be that some, some must take a stand as defenders of the faith. Um But uh I am not,

01:11:49.040 - 01:12:09.350

uh I'm not cut out for that kind of work. And Ruby, Ruby thought I, I'm not, didn't use just those words, but Ruby said that he thought I'd better be careful about how I'm speaking there. Uh uh implying that one man is uh uh is a

01:12:09.359 - 01:12:29.419

defender of the faith and another one isn't, that's a good point. What about uh Ew mcmillan? I was telling you of an article that was recently written in mission magazine by Don Hays entitled The Silence of the Scholars in which he felt that the leading minds

01:12:29.759 - 01:12:49.009

and the scholars in the church today were being quiet on critical issues. And he sort of traced the history of scholarship in the 20th century churches of Christ and in the 19 thirties, he listed you and Ew mcmillan as being the two bright lights uh of

01:12:49.020 - 01:13:13.359

scholarship within the brotherhood of the churches of Christ. How well did you know brother mcmillan in the thirties? Not, not very well personally, um but uh uh sufficiently to uh respect and admire uh him and his attitude. Do you know him better? Now, have you been

01:13:13.370 - 01:13:38.700

close friends for several years? Well, I can't say that I've got much closer to him. I haven't been thrown in his way often, but each time you've been with him, your reaction has been positive to that. Uh What about uh uh WB West? He was, he

01:13:38.709 - 01:14:03.160

one of the first administrators of Pepperdine College, the dean or officer? Well, I don't know what about administrator? He was the, he was the head of the Bible department. Oh, what me, how do you remember him? I remember him as a man, uh very enthusiastic about

01:14:03.169 - 01:14:34.680

his books. The, the building up of the library, his personal library was a vast have the, a man of uh good sense and restraint and who likable. Yeah. And what about, uh JP Sanders? I've picked up an unusually close friendship between the two of you as

01:14:34.689 - 01:15:02.899

well. Every time his name is mentioned. Well, I'll fall on this support. I regard him as eminent for his scholarship and kind in frenzy for his personal relationships and uh as competent as an administrator. But here's my ideal. Well, that brings me to another question. Now,

01:15:02.910 - 01:15:26.160

next year you'll be 80 and looking back over 80 years in the life of the church, uh 100 years from now, if the Lord hasn't returned, who uh who will the historians in our brotherhood remember as, as the most influential men in the 80 year period

01:15:26.169 - 01:15:42.950

that, that your life has covered so far? Now what reminds me of that is you've already mentioned two men that were idols to you, Jn Armstrong and JP Sanders. Uh Are there others in that that you would just put right up on the same shelf with

01:15:42.959 - 01:16:06.560

them? Are there others in that category? Oh, I, I'm reluctant to put, he was being some superlative category. Um Of course, there are, there are many good men, most of them, all of them are good men that we have talked about today. And which ones will

01:16:06.569 - 01:16:41.419

be remembered in 100 years or 50 years? I don't know that uh probably ones who have held administrative post, people like them, our president, our, our college president and editors and editors. Uh As far as the people who've had the finest influence in your life, are

01:16:41.430 - 01:17:04.600

there others who've had as much Christian or spiritual influence as Armstrong and Sanders? Well, you singled out the man. I might have put a number one and uh I think there are others that uh who was that? Who do they compare brother Lamar and brother with

01:17:04.609 - 01:17:24.240

her arm strong? Who, who had I singled out that you might have put number one? Well, let's see. You, you named the, I didn't know which one you were talking about. I named JP Sanders. JB Sanders. Yes. Well, with his name in mind, it was hard

01:17:24.250 - 01:17:45.220

to think of a second. No, I thought when uh as I look over the field, I think of, think of these others such as for the LA. Uh Do you know uh one that I haven't mentioned? I didn't even mention it at lunch. Was Ruel Lemons.

01:17:45.229 - 01:18:10.680

Have you been close to r through the years? I'm not very, I've been reading his articles in the action lately. Yeah. And uh I would hesitate to put anything like a verdict on him. Um He has good ideas. Common sense. Yeah. They couldn't organizing planter and

01:18:10.790 - 01:18:41.879

oxygen. Oh, a cap a little. Now, um, how long does your friendship go back with Jimmy Lovell? Oh, for many years. I don't know just how long, but for most of my life. So how is your own, uh, personal feeling about the future of our brotherhood

01:18:43.700 - 01:19:04.589

about t, is of, what is your sort of, uh, gut level feeling right now? Is there a certain worry or do you see signs of hope or? Uh, well, I've, I've noticed, um, a survey, survey of centuries seems to be the style as they passed the

01:19:04.600 - 01:19:30.000

two hun 200 anniversary of the American State. And uh there was some editorial writing in the Christianity today as to what would have been the prediction and the predictions would have been markedly wrong. Uh Christianity in revolutionary times, in the revolutionary and post revolutionary times, our

01:19:30.009 - 01:19:52.990

Christianity is well on the way towards extinction and curiously that uh if there's anything but extinguish that the membership money building for all the external features of it, by that, it's far from just uh extinction. And uh on the other hand, at times, at times when

01:19:53.000 - 01:20:12.879

um and it looked quite prosperous, uh It was a time of inner decay and uh anything that uh really successful. So I would shrink from this. Maybe if I, if I gave a good prophecy, it would turn out bad and vice versa. OK, let's talk. Uh

01:20:12.890 - 01:20:31.430

We've just got a few moments left about Pepperdine since 1962. That's when you joined the faculty. Why did you go to Pepperdine in 1962. Was your stay up at Berkeley? Did you, had you reached a mandatory retirement age at Berkeley? You, you were 65 locking one

01:20:31.439 - 01:20:51.810

year. Uh, I could have gone one more year with the position and I was, uh, I had my heart set on the Pepperdine position. And, uh, so I figure why not? Now if it's not worth be worthwhile doing for 10 years of my life, I, why

01:20:51.819 - 01:21:11.930

not add a year or two of it? I begin to think of that as a kind of a reward for what I aimed at all along. So who invited you there on the faculty? Uh Well, Jackie Sander. So you than anyone else, I think I had

01:21:11.939 - 01:21:38.069

various friends there that were eager to see me come, Wade Ruby, I think. And JP, West uh WB West, those three WD and JP. And the way you went there in the fall of 1962. Now, what is your reaction to the, to the way the school

01:21:38.080 - 01:22:04.370

has gone between 1962 and 1976? Hm. It's not totally positive, you know, uh some of the moves that preceded my leaving, the place were such as to fill me with grave distrust. I could be all wrong and hence, I'd rather not correct myself but uh uh

01:22:06.450 - 01:22:39.750

I'm not too, oh, I'm, I'm uncertain. I have not, I'll wait. We had a um uh an elders meeting at uh Malibu. Um When was it Sunday evening or was it Saturday evening? It was a meeting I did not attend. They told me they thought I

01:22:39.759 - 01:23:03.129

might as well stay away. I, I, my attendance at a group meeting in a larger group, especially like it's fal, um, because of your hearing difficult. My hearing now, I guess my hearing aid was a little bit lower than usual. Um, they, um, uh, hm. Yeah.

01:23:04.970 - 01:23:26.250

Yeah. Uh, this meeting was, uh, was, um, was promising. Apparently the ones who went on my own elders, uh were pleased. They said that the, that the whole group was, were, were rather pleased. And uh he named who was, who was there. And I could understand

01:23:26.259 - 01:23:47.359

that they probably would be uh Carl Metal and uh Bob Thomas and uh Howard White. Uh oh, yes. So by all means, but a white, um, were you at that meeting? And I heard that it was, but they were all in one spirit that a religious

01:23:47.370 - 01:24:04.319

revival is needed. That that was the up shot of it. And, and people who are in, in official positions at, at Malibu Pine were reluctant to say, speak up because they speak against their own administrators. They didn't say that you can say that, but that's the

01:24:04.330 - 01:24:17.910

way I interpreted it. But they, they, they didn't, they, they were not in a position to lead and, and, and the Pepperdine people who went down there and had their say were in a position to lead and they, they were needed for it. I of course,

01:24:17.919 - 01:24:35.290

analyze it that way. Why you say it's a fine turn of events. Uh, but who's missing? I don't even know the names of all, all the people that are missing, but I know somebody's missing there. Yeah. And, uh, they may be, they may be, may be

01:24:35.299 - 01:24:50.589

good and then they turn out. All right. I, I don't know. Give me your reaction to, uh, Frank Peck. Oh, it's fine. I don't know why his name hasn't been mentioned sooner because I, I never could have a department take that I had more higher regard

01:24:50.729 - 01:25:10.649

for. And also you feel very highly about Howard White bones evidently on the whole, I've got a pretty good feeling towards my, my life's been associated with. What, uh, do you care to comment at all about Norville? I'm not talking about his accident or that I'm

01:25:10.660 - 01:25:26.569

just talking about. Was there a feeling of betrayal in that he had made some promises that he was going to leave the school in one direction and, and, uh, he really seemed to sell out and move in a different direction. Yes, it was, it was tragic.

01:25:26.580 - 01:25:42.729

And the first thing that came out in the Los Angeles Times was to me the most, uh, devastating thing, other people, the terrible little man in his position would get drunk and smash up a car and kill people. Well, that is pretty bad. But that didn't

01:25:42.740 - 01:26:07.069

affect me so badly as his analysis of his own tensions and by his own tensions, he had, he had been so distracted by the narrow mindedness and I'll forget the words there now. But the words were very insulting, legalistic, legalism, narrow mindedness uh of the majority

01:26:07.080 - 01:26:23.220

of the preachers of that, that, that you, you've been associated with, you couldn't take it any longer. And so the doctor said, well, go out and get to a drunk. Well, now he claimed after that that he was misquoted. Well, he, he was, he was twice

01:26:23.229 - 01:26:44.520

in the, the CRISPR uh misquoted twice in that case. Well, I hope that's true. And that's for that reason why I, I will try to withhold my judgment. Have you seen him since the accident? I love to talk to him. We've got maybe just a minute

01:26:44.529 - 01:27:05.229

left. Uh What, uh, what is your reaction to the congregation at Turnpike Road since you moved? You've retired in Santa Barbara and have been here two years or three years. Two less, less than two, less than two. Well, I think it's delightful. I never have seen

01:27:05.240 - 01:27:36.819

such a, a sweet congregation. Um, the brotherly affection and, uh, everything and I, I, I'd rather leave out today. Other, other, I'm, uh, I can't, uh, I can't judge, uh, my hearing. I think maybe I'm gonna get a little better with my hearing aid. Uh, but

01:27:36.830 - 01:27:56.310

I, I don't know what goes on in the business meeting and without knowing that. Well, I, I don't know where we stand very distressing. Apparently they, uh, the way the city and the building inspectors and so on have a paralyzed, I don't, do you know anything

01:27:56.319 - 01:28:13.979

about that? Well, some of it that's, it's been very tough to build a building and, and all of that. Have you, have you enjoyed your stay in Santa Barbara? Are you happy now that you chose to retire here or you were sort of on the fence

01:28:13.990 - 01:28:32.029

when you moved here? You were, uh, you could have stayed a little longer at Pepperdine. Uh You could have gone to Columbia Christian to be with JP Sanders. Well, I don't attempt to and I, I had a heart and no, I don't think I'm, I'm enough.

01:28:32.040 - 01:28:51.040

Um, I find anything that, uh it's not kind of far but painful enough to drive me into Columbia snows. Ok. To be near the JP would be quite a lovely, lovely thing to think about, but there are others here. One thing I missed early in the

01:28:51.049 - 01:29:16.529

conversation. When did you meet JN Armstrong? I don't think we covered that. Well, I met him when I was young, way back in the time when GW Riggs was living and I was a mere high school boy. I guess I'm a why um Armstrong held a,

01:29:16.540 - 01:29:38.720

an event, a protected meeting in uh uh sit street church and uh uh I don't think my boy's reaction was anything so deep and lasting and so on. But I remember him and if I want, wanna tell my first reaction, well, that's it. It was really

01:29:38.729 - 01:29:57.689

good. What do you think of the biography by LC Sears? Oh, that's, that's very good. I own that book. You enjoyed that? Uh, what about Bill Bows Ski's book on the Mirror of a Movement? That was sort of a, it's a very good book. It, um,

01:29:58.479 - 01:30:22.689

uh it's a scholarly book. Uh It, uh and it is uh a temperate, even minded. It avoids the uh avoids the uh denunciations. Wouldn't hurt anybody to do, would it? No, just a good, uh his history of the 20th of a good school. Let me uh

01:30:22.700 - 01:30:42.819

close by making sure I wanna make sure I've got the, the men that really shaped your life spiritually the most. Uh So I'm glad to find out exactly when you met Armstrong. So Armstrong would be uh chronologically, would even be before Larrimore for me. Yeah, for

01:30:42.830 - 01:31:04.240

you. Uh As far as the influence on your life and then Larrimore and then later Sanders. Now, uh are there others that would, whose influence on your life was as deep as theirs? Because obviously those three really help shape your life? Well, it would be hard.

01:31:05.069 - 01:31:22.430

I, I fix on those three. It's hard to put my mind on anybody else in comparison. Well, now there's sort of a gap between uh Armstrong and Larimore both had influence on you prior to 1919 and you probably didn't get to know JP Sanders until uh

01:31:22.439 - 01:31:43.899

1935 to 38 somewhere in there. So there's about a 15 year gap there. And then of course, there's a gap after Sanders, of course, by that time you were uh 40 so maybe you were beyond being shaped by, by younger uh influences in your life. But

01:31:43.910 - 01:32:09.430

is there anybody in that 1920 to 1935 period? Let's see, 1920 all the years you were at Alhambra and back at Berkeley, your first years at Berkeley? Well, now the influences in Alhambra of a different sort, there's no um outstanding Christian uh who becomes an example

01:32:09.439 - 01:32:27.799

and guiding star to me there. I was a teacher in the high school. I had the problems of a of a school teacher and uh I satisfied myself, I did pretty well and um I would admire this and that school teacher, my own department chief was

01:32:27.810 - 01:32:47.470

a woman of marked ability and, and uh vivacity and uh influence, but she wasn't a Christian. And consequently, I don't put her in the competition. How about who principal was? Another wonderful fellow? He's a great man and I admire him and I would, I would put

01:32:47.479 - 01:33:09.709

him there. I can't think of any, any Christian man in there that would rival the the school principal for his influence on me and admiration. What about after 1940. Uh, what about the 1940 to 1950 or so? And that, uh, when did you first meet Frank

01:33:09.720 - 01:33:26.180

Pack? How far does that go? I don't know how I come to pass him over because he, he should rate high to him because I don't have a pack. Uh, was a brilliant preacher when he was young at a time when Berkeley was looking for a

01:33:26.189 - 01:33:38.319

preacher. Well, we heard that there was a, a rising star back around Tennessee. That was, it would be a wonderful thing if you could get him and his name was Frank Pat. I never even met him or heard him but.